Korean, Sa-Eun Park, on Growing Up in Saudi Arabia, Austria, & Identifying as "AsianAlien" [Ep 29]

Sa-Eun Park was two-years-old when her family moved from South Korea to Saudi Arabia, where there were work opportunities for her parents, both of whom had struggled to survive the poverty and hardships of post-war Korea. In contrast to her parents early years, Sa-Eun spent her childhood adapting to the cultural and social mores of life as a veiled girl in Saudi Arabia, before transitioning to the very different culture of boarding school in the Austrian Alps. At 17, she relocated independently to UC Berkeley, California for college and so by the age of 20, Sa-Eun had adapted to four very different cultures. Now 41, she has moved with ease 32 times across 46 countries for study, for work, for adventure, and to satiate her curiosity and restlessness. But as was the case for many young nomads, with the onset of the pandemic her peripatetic lifestyle came to a halt.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Louise: Welcome to Women Who WaIk. I'm Louise Ross, writer and author of Women Who Walk the book, the inspiration for this podcast. And just as I did for the book here, I'll be interviewing and unpacking the journeys of impressive, intrepid women who've made multiple international moves for work, for adventure, for love, for freedom - reminding us that women can do extraordinary things. You can find a transcript, with pictures, to each episode, and my books on my website, LouiseRoss.com.

[00:00:47] Louise: Hello listeners. Welcome to Episode 29 of Women Who Walk. My guest today is Sa-Eun Park. 

[00:00:55] Louise: Born in South Korea, Sa-Eun was two-years-old when her family moved to Saudi Arabia. Saudi offered work and opportunities for her parents, both of whom grew up in the 1950s, struggling to survive the poverty and hardships of post-war Korea.

[00:01:15] Louise: In contrast to her parents early years, Sa-Eun spent her childhood adapting to the cultural and social mores of life as a veiled girl in Saudi Arabia, before transitioning to the very different culture of boarding school in the Austrian Alps. At 17, she chose to relocate independently to California for college, as she had her heart set on attending UC Berkeley.

[00:01:44] Louise: And so before the age of 20, Sa-Eun had already immersed herself in and adapted to four very different cultures. 

[00:01:55] Louise: Now 20 years later, she has moved with ease 32 times across 46 countries for study, for work for adventure and to satiate her cultural curiosity and restlessness. But as was the case for many young nomads, with the onset of the pandemic, her peripatetic lifestyle came to a halt.

[00:02:19] Louise: During our interview, I had Sa-Eun read a paragraph from her website and I also quoted from it. However, since then she has edited her site and so I just wanted to give listeners the heads-up that if you go looking for the quotes, you may not find them. But you will find an extensive list of blog articles covering topical issues written by this self-professed AsianAlien by way of giving voice to her very diverse lived experiences.

[00:02:51] Louise: And as with my previous three guests, I met Sa-Eun at the March, 2022 virtual conference, hosted by Families in Global Transition. The young women I've met via F I G T are pretty darn impressive and so I'm thrilled that several agreed to share their stories on this podcast.

[00:03:12] 

[00:03:24] Louise: Welcome Sa-Eun, it's great to have you as a guest on the podcast today, and I'd love to start by having you read a paragraph from your website.

[00:03:34] Sa-Eun: Early in my life, my parents moved us from South Korea to Saudi Arabia due to extreme poverty from a devastating war. As a girl, I was taught to hide, veil my beauty, shush my powerful voice, dim my colorful emotions and intuition. Silence my questions and hide my spirituality. 

[00:04:02] Louise: Thank you. Now that's quite evocative and so many questions come to mind. Firstly, which war was it that caused your parents to move countries? How old were you and what if any memories do you have from that time? Which I'm guessing was your first country move. 

[00:04:21] Sa-Eun: Yeah. Thank you, Louise. And thank you so much for this opportunity to share my story. So it is the Korean war, which was in 1950, which I believe is the first proxy war of the cold war between the superpowers. And prior to this war, Korea was colonized by Japan for about 40 years. The war begins in 1950. My father is born in 1950 in October. And so he is born while the family, my grandma, grandpa, and his brother, sister is running from the war scene and he's born on a creek side in the wild.

[00:05:08] Sa-Eun: So that becomes a very big part of his life and the rest of our family. My mother is born in 1954, which is a year after the active part of the war. But as you may know, Korea is still technically at the same war, we are still divided between north and south, as a result of this war. 

[00:05:34] Sa-Eun: How old was I for this move? I had just turned two. So I was very young and this move actually happens in 1983, so I don't have a lot of memory from the move. I feel like I have dreamt what that first flight might have felt like at some point, which was a very powerful dream. But other than that, my mom still talks about when I first arrived in Saudi Arabia at the king Khalid International Airport, which might have been King Fahad back then, that out of all these men, waiting at the reception area, I knew who my father was, who I hadn't really interacted with all that much, and ran towards him. So that's my arrival. 

[00:06:25] Louise: That's very sweet. That last little part of that story, but a, a, a devastating origin story coming out of the war of Korea. So your father went ahead then if, uh, you arrived and then you ran to him, so he was there to receive you. Is that right? 

[00:06:42] Sa-Eun: That's right. He had moved to Saudi Arabia in the late '70s. Korea was just so poor, devastated from the war. He just looking for job opportunities and he was so poor that he didn't get proper education. He didn't really finish middle school or high school. He studied on his own and got into college and was offered to teach English or go to Saudi Arabia. To him, that was the ticket to help his entire family. He was committed to sending back remittance money and really the rest of my relatives in Korea definitely financially benefited a lot from it. 

[00:07:23] Louise: Was your family part of an international expat community in Saudi Arabia or, or was there a significant Korean community that your family was a part of?

[00:07:33] Sa-Eun: There was a significant Korean community that my father is like one of the founders of. Almost all Korean families that were sent to Saudi Arabia back then were related to building, like building the infrastructure of Saudi Arabia, building roads and buildings, construction-related work. And prior to my mother and I coming, a lot of these young men, lived in dormitories with a chef and office, and then they would go out to the field to do the work and come back. That's how he lived until we joined. And we actually lived in that dormitory-style apartment building for a while as well.

[00:08:17] Louise: Do you remember that environment? 

[00:08:19] Sa-Eun: I remember our apartment, how simple it was and then how fun it was you run down and there's the chef. I loved the chef, of course. Yeah. That's what I remember about the house, kind of like running down is towards food. 

[00:08:37] Louise: Perhaps even a sense of an extended family or community. 

[00:08:40] Sa-Eun: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:08:43] Sa-Eun: And, and there's one more thing I wanna say about your question, which is you know, cuz English is not my first language, it's my second language and when a native-English speaker categorizes expat versus Korean, you tend to think, okay, that's the American way or Australian way of categorizing people, but I wanna say, Korean migrants are expats too. That way of categorizing makes me feel a little bit split or makes me question, wait, am I, am I an expat? I certainly am. You know, so, I just wanted to point that out that we, including myself, tend to talk about expat community as this Western, inside-a-compound, versus someone like me who lived in a dormitory for instance, or in our own home among the locals. We're an expat, we're Korean foreigners there. 

[00:09:43] Louise: Thanks for, thanks for clarifying that. In the community in which we met, which is Families in Global Transition, there's interesting discussion about the definition of an expat and how different is it to an immigrant and a migrant and a refugee. The definition is evolving, um, perhaps in the research and academic community. 

[00:10:06] Sa-Eun: For me it keeps evolving in my own life. Like now I'm an immigrant to United States. How is that different from my experience living in Saudi Arabia? And it does remind me of my Korean community that I lived amongst in Saudi Arabia. I was also deeply part of, uh, Bengali community, Filipino community, Indian community, Pakistani, like, I mean, when I actually paint the picture of my life in Riyad, we were 99% expats and then just like few Saudis around. 

[00:10:40] Louise: Uh huh. Yeah. You and your family were very much part of an international immigrant community that was there presumably for work and opportunity. So we could spend the whole interview talking about what does it mean to be an expat or an immigrant, and we may leave it there so we can learn more about you, cuz I'm just dying to talk about your personal story.

[00:11:04] Louise: Um, one of the things that really drew me to your story was this fascinating diversity of cultures in which you've lived. And that opening paragraph is so evocative so I want to circle back to it and say that presumably once in Saudi Arabia, due to the cultural mores, as they apply to women, that you were veiled, etc. And so I'm wondering, can you talk us through this experience, expand a bit on the veiling and the shushing and the dimming and silencing and its impact on the young you? 

[00:11:40] Sa-Eun: Yes, definitely. I am happy to share this, cuz I feel we need to talk more about Saudi Arabia. 

[00:11:46] Louise: Hmm-hmm 

[00:11:47] Sa-Eun: Those of us that have lived there. I'm gonna share it and it's going to mix a bit between how I see it now as an adult and then how I experienced it as a girl. 

[00:11:57] Louise: Mm-hmm 

[00:11:58] Sa-Eun: Um, but really as a girl, you don't know what else is out there. Especially a lot of pop culture that may have even been shared back then was censored in the country. And so you just learn what you observe. For instance, veiling, that was like a girl's dream. You wanna become just like your mom, right? Your mom is so beautiful. She's putting on a veil. Makeup. Walking out the door. You wanna be like that. And so when your parents are gone, you would like take mom's veil, put it around and do a little dance. Wear her heels. I remember getting my, so it was more of a dream. I remember getting my first abaya and how much I loved it. It was just like a dress. That's all I knew as a girl. 

[00:12:42] Sa-Eun: From an adult's perspective and who I am now, it's quite a different perspective as you can imagine. That whole shushing and dimming and all of that actually started in my own home. My parents from Korea, still to this day, Korea is a very patriarchal society. And so how my mother and my father interacted with one another, as well as the kind of things that my father would say to me, a good girl, don't talk. Good girl don't show emotions. Good girl don't ask questions.

[00:13:14] Sa-Eun: I do believe due to the war and a lot of the trauma that my father has been through, he also learned the behavior of beating. And so that was also quite common in our house. Um, so that is what, not only I learned, but also my mother is part of all of this, like allowing all of this and then where do we go? We open the door and the behavior that we see outside is also men making decisions. Men are the ones ordering food, right? Women are following behind men. That sort of thing. And then I'm here with my Korean community, same kind of behavior between men and women.

[00:13:52] Sa-Eun: Women cook in the kitchen generally, and then we serve the men. Men eat the fresh, hot food first. What's left, women eat later. I was really reinforced through these different layers of environments where I was raised at least until 13, to be a good girl who is quiet and don't show a whole lot and just be obedient. 

[00:14:16] Louise: You do mention until 13 and again, on your website you say, "then fate took me to an international boarding school in Austria. I was 13." When I read this, it took me a minute to get my head around what that might have been like for you, because I was imagining the cultural mores and restrictions that you were living with in Saudi and then at such a formative age, you go to a third culture that's so vastly different from the one you were born into, and then the one that you'd spent your elementary school years in, but what was it like for you? Was it confusing for your emerging self identity? 

[00:14:59] Sa-Eun: Yes, it was very, very confusing. At the same time, the trouble for me is that I didn't wanna say or tell anybody that it was confusing because a part of me really loved that I was escaping this, this controlled life. Even though pop culture was censored in Saudi, like movies you know, you get like kissing scene cut in the middle , but you always knew as a kid, there is something missing. So yeah, you send me to a free country like Austria part of me is like, please, I wanna be here. Yeah, it was confusing and I didn't express that it was confusing so it took many years for me to really process what this was for me and how it impacted my life. 

[00:15:48] Louise: Did you go a little wild in Austria because you go from a very confined, restricted, shushing culture to freedom. And I just imagine that there might have been opportunities for you to just kind of, go a little crazy. And at that age, typically we do go through a period when we react against everything, particularly our parents. So was there any kind of rebellious streak in you at that time? 

[00:16:19] Sa-Eun: Well, Yes and no. I would say the part that is the no is just simply because I was so different from the culture, the family, now this huge school is my family. Who are my parents now? These like tall, white American teachers, you know, so just adjusting to that, I think I was just so shy and so shocked. I happened to room with an older Korean girl, Annie, and a Finnish girl, Hannah. They were like my sisters, right. I remember Hannah trying to teach me to curse. She feels so frustrated that I'm not talking. I'm, I'm so afraid of English. One day she like stacked her books and she's, ' watch me, watch me,' and she drops it. And then she goes, fuck. Say it after me, Sa-Eun, "fuck." I'm like, "fuck." And, and I need to add that, the context, the story behind my going to Austria was just so sad because I was trying to get into the international schools in Saudi Arabia. 

[00:17:24] Louise: Mm-hmm 

[00:17:25] Sa-Eun: There was a British school, American school, and I couldn't get in. There was an entrance exam that I took five times and I, I just didn't get in. Rest of my friends got in. I didn't get in. So there was no other schooling available, which is really what led my parents to look elsewhere. But in my mind, I was this like big reject. Arriving in Austria, I do think I had a, quite a shy wall that I needed to get over. From there, I remember feeling, you know, you're so young, you're absorbing everything so fast and your brain is adjusting so fast, maybe after three months, I started speaking English and then the wild side came out. Absolutely. 

[00:18:06] Louise: I have to mention, when I first saw a picture of you online, I'm like, oh, you go girl, look at that blue hair. 

[00:18:15] Sa-Eun: Yes. I loved colors. That blue was supposed to be purple. 

[00:18:19] Louise: No, it was a very nice aqua. 

[00:18:23] Sa-Eun: Thank you.

[00:18:24] Louise: And was it an American international school? You said American teachers? 

[00:18:30] Sa-Eun: Yes. Yes. Really wonderful school. Tiny, quaint, 130 students. Tucked in the middle of Alps in Salzburg. We had our sports days. We have like amazing chef. It's tiny, 130 is a good size community. You meet students from really all over the world. I would say very good education. 

[00:18:50] Louise: That's quite positive by the sounds of it. You could have easily gotten lost if it was an enormous school, if it was a huge international school. But 130 is like the compound that the family moved into when you arrived in Saudi Arabia, like an extended family.

[00:19:07] Sa-Eun: You are so right about that. It felt exactly like that. And because a lot of the kids were coming from these compound lives too, so I think we were just very familiar with the mixed culture aspect. And then we also had a lot of students come from Eastern Europe, due to the conflict there. A lot of parents were wanting to send their kids to somewhere safe and so, yeah, we were this mix, this super United Nations home. 

[00:19:37] Louise: It sounds like a mini UN in the Austrian Alps. 

[00:19:40] Sa-Eun: Yeah. 

[00:19:41] Louise: And then from Austria, you go to California, at 17, where you live with a host Korean family and where you continued your studies. And again, on your website, you mentioned the culture shock of wild Los Angeles.

[00:19:56] Sa-Eun: Well, that's where I go wild. 

[00:19:59] Louise: That's where you go wild, okay. So what happened? 

[00:20:03] Sa-Eun: The wildness about LA is just, I think I'm expressing that through the lens of when I first arrived, the culture shock that I had, and it was just so different from what I had imagined. Moving to California was my own choice. I don't know how in the world the 17-year-old brain thought this way. I'm so proud of my 17-year-old now, but I was just so clear that I'm not going to Korea, which was really the only other option that my parents wanted and really everybody else in my community, did in order to repatriate. We are generally groomed to go back home and be Korean. And I just didn't wanna do that because it seemed to me that it means I am going to college to meet a husband and become a housewife, and I wanted to explore my life. 

[00:20:54] Sa-Eun: I convinced my parents that they need to send me to LA so that I can go to this famous college called UC Berkeley. My parents understood that much, and then I convinced them to find me a host family in California. I arrive in LA and I'm saying this to my host mom, like tomorrow, I'm going to go to Berkeley admissions office to talk with the people. And they're like, it's a 7-hour drive. You're in Southern California. Berkeley it's in Northern California. 

[00:21:23] Sa-Eun: The shock of this enormity of one state, not even the country itself. Everything was so big. You order food just the portions. People seem also so much bigger and the highways, the freeways, it was just wild. Palm trees piercing through the sky. I walked to my college, nobody walks in California, but I walked, cuz I'm like this Austrian girl, and people would honk and look at me like, what are you doing, walking on a highway? Oh, yes, it was, it felt very wild, wild west. 

[00:21:59] Louise: So did you go to UC Berkeley?

[00:22:01] Sa-Eun: I did. 

[00:22:03] Louise: Oh, you did good. Good for you. 

[00:22:05] Sa-Eun: I went to a community college in Cerritos in Southern California, and then I transferred to UC Berkeley and studied business administration. 

[00:22:15] Louise: Okay. Well now we're going to fast forward. We're going to skip way ahead to age 40. Because by then you'd moved to 32 times and experienced 46 countries. And I might add, you've just had another country move back to the US, and this time to Vermont, but I'm wondering how old are you now?

[00:22:36] Sa-Eun: I am 41. 

[00:22:39] Louise: You're just year on. 

[00:22:41] Sa-Eun: Yeah. 

[00:22:42] Louise: So from, from this vantage point, looking back at very rich cross-cultural experiences that you've had, how do you make sense of it all? Or, or what insights do you have that bring meaning to a life that could be seen as unrooted or nomadic? 

[00:22:59] Sa-Eun: I am 41 and now it's my, what is it, 34th move, how do I make sense of it all? The first thing that comes to mind is that I am a nomad. In my 20s, my 30s, thirties was when I traveled the most, I was just busy chasing after the next thing. At first it was university that moved me somewhere and then it's the job that moves me elsewhere, and then it's the grad school that moves me, and then it becomes the curiosity or that dream project. I was just moving without ever really looking back and realizing how many times I had moved. 

[00:23:41] Louise: Is there a point at which you did just stop and think, how many times have I moved? 

[00:23:47] Sa-Eun: It took the pandemic to sit me down and really feel this feeling of, I am exhausted. Where is this feeling coming from? To make sense of it all, I did a lot of art, different art on my own. And one of the things that felt so healing was to open a global map and just pin down all the places that I had lived. To some people living might mean a residence address, but for me, one week is living.

[00:24:19] Sa-Eun: I lived here and there a week, two weeks, couple months at a time, and I pinned all those. And then I used color threads to express the movement from one place to another, to come up with an art expression of every place that I had been to around the world. And that was so healing, to see it externalized on a global map was definitely a big step to making sense of it all. And realizing, wow, I did complain a lot about, oh, I'm moving so much. Oh, I have to pack again. Oh, I have to unpack again, to realizing, wait a second, no, I am a nomad. I live in motion.

[00:25:00] Louise: Oh, I like that. I live in motion. That's an interesting way to put it. 

[00:25:04] Sa-Eun: It's probably some very famous mystic that I'm forgetting. They're on a camel and moving and the child keeps saying, 'Dad, are we there yet? Are we there yet?' And dad turns to the son, 'Son, we are nomads.' Maybe that's where I heard, we live in motion. But I really like that; I do feel that's who I am. Even if I'm settled here now in Vermont, I'm constantly traveling. 

[00:25:27] Louise: Why did you choose Vermont? 

[00:25:29] Sa-Eun: That is a very long story, but I will say if you were to come here, you would understand why. It is just gorgeous here. There's a lake and the green mountains. It reminds me of Austria and South Korea. Both countries. I have an American passport, so that also guides me to United States and where is the best place? For me is this spot. It's also bordered with Canada. Being this multicultural person, I need the diversity and I love Montreal. It's just two hours from here. Another very multicultural place. But I would say Vermont, the main answer is nature and people who are connected to nature. 

[00:26:16] Louise: Mm, mm. When you said it reminds me of Austria, having been to Vermont many, many years ago, the beautiful autumnal colors are very much like Austria, so I can understand how there would be a sense of familiarity about the, the natural environment. We skipped through 20 years and we don't have time to go through those 20 years, but one of the ways I thought we could touch on the richness of your young adult years is to run through a list of the blog headings on your website or the articles that you've written. I'm going to read them out. There's 21. Twenty-one headings. There's Alien, Asian, Belonging, Body, Identity, Burnout, Career, Diversity, Earth, Energy, Equity, Expat, Fulfillment, Home, Identity, Inclusion, Microaggression, Nomad, Racism, Repatriation, Roots, and Unconscious Bias. These are obviously issues that are close to your heart as a result of your life experiences thus far. And presumably they're issues that you bring to your work as a coach and consultant. And then are your clients coming to you seeking support around those topics? 

[00:27:37] Sa-Eun: Absolutely. I'm a life coach and I'm a consultant for organizations. And my main mission is to raise diversity and inclusion, expressing ourselves as who we are. And so all these topics I'm writing because I am trying to be authentic myself. I'm just simply trying to share my own voice, my own experience and feelings. It's a call to those who resonate with what I'm writing about to come hang out with me, whether as a coaching client or, or not. I'm just really wanting to meet like-minded people, global citizens. 

[00:28:11] Sa-Eun: Life coaching is different from consulting. Consulting, you are an expert in an area, you add your brain to the problem-solving table. Whereas life coaching, you are helping somebody explore who they are fully with their heart, mind, their body, their life experience, and so it doesn't matter what the topic is. But these topics definitely tend to come up. I think it's a reflection of our world nowadays, as well as a reflection of having lived a globally mobile life. 

[00:28:42] Louise: I can imagine that these are topics that you can speak on with a great deal of expertise because of your global mobility and experiences. And then the name of your website, TheAsianAlien, I've gotta ask you, what's the story behind that? Are you comfortable sharing it? Because again, we started with you reading out a very evocative paragraph, and I find that the title of your website quite evocative as well. 

[00:29:11] Sa-Eun: Oh, is it? That's very interesting reflection. The way that I came up with a name is, as I said, my mission is to raise diversity and inclusion. Now, how do I do that? I looked at other life coaches and a lot of people have their name, and I started actually as Sa-EunShine.com because how do I shine when I'm showing up to my work? But then from a marketing point of view, I realized it takes a while for people to really get to know you and your name. So I wanted to change the domain to something that's maybe funny and also still expresses who I am in a potent way. 

[00:29:48] Sa-Eun: I am Asian. For so long I've lived as if a part of me is something else, or I couldn't really see who I am as I am. And so just the joy of acceptance that I'm Asian, I wanted to express that with my domain. I also wanna be intentional about Asian representation. If I'm gonna carve out a little cyberspace, I'm going to represent Asian faces and Asian voices and Asians in global transition. 

[00:30:20] Sa-Eun: The word alien, Asian starts with 'A', so I thought of another 'A' word -alien came to mind. I have felt like an alien most of my life. As you can imagine, growing up in Saudi and then bam, you are out in the world, you are an alien, you totally feel like an alien. And now that I've made it Asian alien, a lot of people are coming up to me, 'I'm alien too'. This shared understanding and laughter around the word alien. That's priceless. 

[00:30:49] Louise: I'm glad that you've explained that for you there was some humor in there. I don't know if when you initially lived in the US, your green card said, um, I can't remember the US green card is alien or something. 

[00:31:03] Sa-Eun: Uh, alien. Alien, you're right. Thank you for pointing that out! 

[00:31:08] Louise: For many years I was miffed because I was an alien, until I got my permanent residency. And so I wondered if it also had something to do with that. You'd lived for many years in the US and perhaps it was a spin on the fact that you're Asian, but you also an alien on your green card.

[00:31:28] Sa-Eun: Yes. It really does have a lot to do with that. 

[00:31:31] Louise: That's kinda bizarre, isn't it? 

[00:31:33] Sa-Eun: It's so bizarre. But if that is a word we can use to connect with one another, like you and I are doing right now, with our alien experiences, then I think it's a good domain name. 

[00:31:47] Louise: One other question: are you finding that the clients that you draw in are Asian-Americans or, um, Asians from around the world? 

[00:31:56] Sa-Eun: I have been coaching for six, seven years and wasn't intending for it to be this way, but I was working with mostly Asians. Now my intention is to work with Asian immigrants, Asians in global transition and anybody who self-identifies as Asian, anybody that resonates with my mission. And so far it's been Asia: the huge continent of Asia, Central, Middle East, all the Stans, to East Asia, South Asia. 

[00:32:30] Louise: Central Asia. 

[00:32:31] Sa-Eun: Yeah. 

[00:32:31] Louise: Hmm. So if listeners would like to learn more about you and your work and perhaps read some of those blog posts, under those 21 headings that I mentioned, where can they find you online?

[00:32:44] Sa-Eun: The best place is to go to my website, which is TheAsianAlien.com and then you can also find me on LinkedIn, by the name, TheAsianAlien, as well as on Facebook. 

[00:32:58] Louise: Terrific. I will link to your social media and your website in the transcript of this episode. And I want to thank you so much, Sa-Eun, for sharing your story with us. 

[00:33:08] Sa-Eun: Thank you so much. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my story. 

[00:33:14] Louise: Thank you for listening today. So you don't miss future episodes subscribe on your favorite podcast provider or on my YouTube channel, Women Who Walk Podcast. Also, feel free to connect with comments on Instagram @LouiseRossWriter or Writer & Podcaster, Louise Ross, on Facebook, or find me on LinkedIn. And finally, if you enjoyed this episode, spread the word and tell your friends!