Practising Acupuncture in the US, France & Portugal, Hayley Enright Navigates Cultural Differences [Ep 34]

Hayley Enright grew up in Florida in the US where she graduated from university with degrees in French and German. But in her mid-twenties, living in New York City, she had a sudden epiphany that changed the direction of her life. Returning to school, this time around, she graduated with a Master’s in Acupuncture, followed by a Master’s in Oriental Medicine and a Bachelor’s in Public Health. Well credentialed, in 2009 she began practising as an acupuncturist in Florida. Four years later, the opportunity to move to Europe came via her partner's Italian passport. The couple decided on France, relocating to Paris, where Hayley’s fluency in French, opened the door for her to build a private practice as an acupuncturist, treating French and international clients. Visiting Lisbon in 2016, Hayley and Frank found themselves captivated by the city to the extent that they relocated to Portugal the following year, where once again, Hayley set up private practice as an acupuncturist treating mostly international clients, but also some Portuguese. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Louise: Welcome to Women Who WaIk. I'm Louise Ross, writer and author of Women Who Walk the book, the inspiration for this podcast. And just as I did for the book here, I'll be interviewing and unpacking the journeys of impressive, intrepid women who've made multiple international moves for work, for adventure, for love, for freedom - reminding us that women can do extraordinary things. You can find a transcript, with pictures, to each episode, and my books on my website, LouiseRoss.com.

[00:00:47] Louise: Hello listeners. Welcome to Episode 34 of Women Who Walk.

[00:00:52] Louise: This episode is the fourth in a series of interviews that I've been doing with women who've moved to Portugal, women who are self-employed in the healing arts as holistic, alternative or non-medical practitioners. 

[00:01:09] Louise: Today's guest is Hayley Enright. Hayley is originally from Washington DC, though at age four, her family moved to Florida where she grew up. With a penchant for languages, she eventually graduated from university with degrees in French and German. But in her mid-twenties, living in New York City and feeling dissatisfied with the way things were not quite working out, she had a sudden epiphany that changed the direction of her life. 

[00:01:43] Louise: Returning to school, this time around, she graduated with a Master's in Acupuncture, followed by a Master's in Oriental Medicine and a Bachelor's in Public Health. Well credentialed, she began practicing as an acupuncturist in Florida in 2009.

[00:02:03] Louise: Four years later, the opportunity to move to Europe came via her husband Frank's newly acquired Italian passport. The couple decided on France, relocating to Paris, where Hayley's fluency in French, afforded her some ease in establishing a private practice as an acupuncturist, treating French and international clients.

[00:02:30] Louise: Upon visiting Lisbon on vacation in 2016, they found themselves captivated by the city to the extent that they relocated to Portugal the following year, where once again, Hayley set up private practice as an acupuncturist treating mostly international clients, but also some Portuguese. 

[00:02:54] Louise: I met Hayley's mother in Lisbon, a number of years ago, when I was promoting Women Who Walk, my book that inspired this podcast. She told a compelling story of her pursuit of a Spanish passport via the 2014 bill that Spain, and then Portugal in 2015, ratified in order to grant citizenship to those who could prove that they were descendants of exiled Sephardic Jews expelled during the inquisition. In this interview, Hayley shares a bit about the conclusion to this story.

[00:03:32] 

[00:03:44] Louise: Welcome Hayley. Thanks for being a guest on Women Who Walk this evening because we are doing this recording at 8:00 PM Portugal time on a weeknight.

[00:03:54] Louise: So tell us, where were you born and a bit about where you grew up and perhaps where you went to school and some memories from your childhood neighborhood? 

[00:04:02] Hayley: Oh yeah. Well, so I am American. I was born in Washington DC and moving overseas has really cemented that identity for me. When I was four, we moved down to Florida so I don't really remember Washington DC. But one of my first memories of Florida is seeing the Spanish Moss, you know, those like spiky green balls that are everywhere down there. Interesting looking spiky, but soft spiky, green balls and they just grow on everything, fences, trees, whatever. And I remember finding them intensely scary. And my dad at one point picked me up, he brought me over to some and he was like, petting it cuz you can touch 'em there's, you know, there's nothing dangerous about them and he's like, no, no Hailey it's okay. It's soft. It's silky. And I'm like, I don't, I don't believe you. Fast forward a couple years and I'm like throwing balls of Spanish Moss around with all the other kids on the playground. 

[00:04:52] Louise: Is that the sort of moss that grows on the swampy areas around the Bayou in, uh, Louisiana, that hangs from the trees', it's sort of like this creeping Moss, but it hangs down and has sort of a creepy look. 

[00:05:05] Hayley: They can also hang down in like tendrils. I don't know if it's the same in Louisiana and yeah, it can look a little bit creepy, but they're actually super, you know, neat.

[00:05:14] Louise: Well, this is a really interesting introduction to a childhood memory. 

[00:05:17] Hayley: Good, yeah. 

[00:05:19] Louise: Thank you. And, you went on to study languages, was this also in the US? 

[00:05:23] Hayley: Yeah. Yeah. All of my education happened in the US. I studied, uh, French German in the undergrad at Florida State. And then I went on to do a Master's in French at Rutgers in New Jersey, and it was during that moment that I was studying language that I was like, wait a second. This is not the direction my life is supposed to go in. 

[00:05:43] Louise: Hang on, before we go in that new direction. 

[00:05:45] Hayley: Okay. 

[00:05:46] Louise: Why didn't you pick languages? 

[00:05:47] Hayley: Oh, well, you know, the world is a big and wonderful place and it's worth exploring it and being able to be proficient in another language really gives you an entree. 

[00:05:55] Louise: Were you naturally good at languages at a, at a young age? 

[00:05:59] Hayley: Yeah. They're never been something that I find, uh, scary at all. It's just easy, just something that takes practice and, you know, languages are like little puzzles, so you can use your brain to figure out these puzzles and put together meaning in really interesting ways. And they're all flexible in different ways, which is also very cool. I think it's powerful to study the ways that humans communicate with each other. 

[00:06:23] Louise: I wish I had your enthusiasm about studying languages. It just wasn't something that, uh, clicked for me. And from languages, you do transition into studying acupuncture, and natural medicine and, and public health as well. This is quite a departure from languages. And so what caused that change in direction? 

[00:06:41] Hayley: It's not, um, it's not jumping to a completely different track because the goal of studying medicine is to work with people and to understand systems involving people in which this case it's health. So I feel like they're not really dissimilar in certain ways because you need to parse the system and understand and learn how to manipulate the elements of each system so that you can use it effectively. I see a strong similarity there. But yeah, why, why I went there? Well, I, I always had this latent interest in medicine and this idea of healing and fixing, and I never wanted to give people medication as the, the way to health, cuz I, it just never made sense to me.

[00:07:20] Hayley: How can something that has so many challenging, if not downright dangerous side effects, really fix things. So I had never studied medicine. I almost was a biologist in an undergrad, but then I got disenchanted with that, cuz I couldn't figure out how this would really serve people enough. 

[00:07:40] Hayley: Anyway, I was on my language track and it wasn't quite right. I wanted to work with people and teach them something useful and help them have a better experience of life, but this just wasn't, it wasn't enough. And I realized later that the disconnect there was because it was everything up in my head. It involved my brain doing a lot of interesting things, but it didn't connect to working with people on a heart level. 

[00:08:02] Hayley: I was sitting in my New York City basement apartment one day going, why, why is this not working the way that I want and feeling kind of lost even though, you know, everything in my life was on the surface looked really great. And I heard a little voice inside my body and it said one thing, it didn't repeat itself. It was not my voice. It was like the voice of the universe. It had no gender. It had no tone. It said, "Acupuncture." And I was completely surprised by this voice. Having never heard anything like it before. But you know what, I didn't have a better idea. I was like, I don't know what to do with myself. All right, I'll go look into acupuncture and that turned out to be a wonderful idea. 

[00:08:49] Louise: Had you had acupuncture yourself? 

[00:08:51] Hayley: I had, but curiously, it had been six years prior. I loved the experience, but I didn't continue with it cuz I was a broke college student with no health issues and I was like, well, this is great, but it doesn't really fit into what I need right now.

[00:09:04] Hayley: At the time when I had this, this voice speak to me, I was doing absolutely nothing around healthcare. I mean I had no healthcare routine. Nothing was going on. So this was a complete shock actually. But I'm so glad that voice showed up cuz it's changed my life in so many wonderful ways. 

[00:09:21] Louise: Interestingly, our interview is the fourth in a series that I've been doing with, uh, women who've moved to Portugal and are working in the healing arts and each woman's story around the transition that she made in her life to the healing arts was as a result of some sort of health issue she had herself. So yours is quite different. Yours was an epiphany that came to you, because you weren't happy with the current direction of your study. 

[00:09:51] Hayley: Yeah, I know. I was, I've considered myself lucky in that I've been quite healthy most of my life. I just got lucky. Thanks universe for talking to me. What can I say? 

[00:09:59] Louise: You also said that medicine didn't appeal because you didn't like the idea of prescriptions or prescription drugs. As an acupuncturist, do you talk about, um, herbs, Chinese herbs? 

[00:10:11] Hayley: You know, I'm not an herbalist. I think herbs can do wonderful things for people, but it just doesn't quite hold my attention in a way that makes me wanna practice it. So I don't do herbs. I really am a body worker. And then I work with acupuncture, needles and energetic modalities, like Cranial Sacral and Reiki and Chi Healing Therapy, which is kind of something I made up myself. And, yeah, so I do that kind of stuff. 

[00:10:35] Louise: Okay. Now, you had a country move in 2013. So what precipitated this? 

[00:10:43] Hayley: The move to Paris. Well, my boyfriend , Frank, got his Italian passport, thanks to his mother who realized she was the last generation who could get it, so she applied and she got it for her two sons, Frank and his brother. And he looked at me and he said, do you wanna move to Europe? And I said, yes, yes, I wanna move to Europe. We chose Paris as the jumping off point, because I spoke French and there was a good music scene, Frank's very musical. We just packed up shop and, moved over and it's been, uh, that was 10 years ago at this point. It's been great. 

[00:11:17] Louise: Were you able to practice there? Were you an acupuncturist in Paris?

[00:11:20] Hayley: Yep. I worked there as well. This has been my job since 2009 and it was really educational experience, you know? The kinds of health concerns that are happening in each country are different from each other. Of course, there are commonalities, but there's definitely like a different flavor. I've worked in three countries now. So working in Paris was quite eye-opening and I think it was a good entree into Europe because you know, the European mindset, uh, is quite different from the American mindset in a lot of ways. It was cool to, to learn that and learn it through work. 

[00:11:51] Hayley: Can you talk a bit about that? That, that sounds interesting.

[00:11:53] Hayley: Yeah. You know, it's really like our cultural norms really inform how we perceive health and how we perceive, um, happiness and the kinds of things we can do about it. Moving to Paris, I realized like, oh, stress here is a completely different animal than stress back in the US. To make some generalizations, they have a culture that's very much oriented up to the brain and thinking about things, uh, very analytically and it is not a culture that's always in touch with their emotions so much.

[00:12:30] Hayley: The way that they experience stress, and the way that they manage stress is really different from an American style, so they also have very different pain problems related to that and hormonal imbalances. The thing that stands out to me the most was burnout. After I moved there, the world health organization declared burnout as an like an official diagnosis.

[00:12:54] Hayley: And I was seeing so many French people with this as an issue. And I had seen no people with this in America, which is not to say it doesn't exist there, but it's just not something that we experience in the same way. It was really related to the work environment for most French people. The way that that was integrated into the daily life was not as well balanced as it needed to be. In Europe there's a really strong idea about, work is work and life is life and you need to make sure you have time for vacations and do things like this, which are wonderful. And in America, a lot of our identities revolve around how we define ourselves through work. So work is life. That was really interesting to encounter. 

[00:13:36] Louise: Did you have to make changes in the way you practiced in order to meet those different cultural norms? 

[00:13:42] Hayley: Yeah. Yeah, I did. In addition to of course addressing people differently, because in French language, you've got the vous polite form versus the tu informal form and you must take care to use those appropriately because you do not wish to cause offense. That was one way; it did change my manner of interacting with patients. Clinically, oh, well, clinically, as you continue to work in any field, you continue to grow and develop so my style changed over time in response to the kinds of things I was seeing. I'm not quite sure how to condense that into something digestible for a non-medical audience. 

[00:14:19] Louise: I think it's really clear the distinction you made between the American way of dealing with stress and the, the French way of dealing with stress. And then we'll get to the Portuguese way shortly. But I wanted to ask you too, were you in private practice in Paris or were you working at an established clinic? 

[00:14:35] Hayley: No, I was just working for myself. Yeah. 

[00:14:37] Louise: Okay. 

[00:14:38] Hayley: Same as I do here in Portugal. Same as I did in Florida, actually. I've always worked for myself 

[00:14:43] Louise: Okay, cool. So then you did make a move to Portugal. Can you tell us when and how and why that came about? 

[00:14:49] Hayley: Yeah, we moved over here in 2017. We came on vacation. It must have been, was it the year before? It might have been the year before and, and Frank and I looked at each other and said, ah, look at this place. It's awfully nice here. What do you think? Should we try to move here? The answer to that was, yes. So Frank came on a couple scouting missions to check out neighborhoods and everything like this; then we made it happen in 2017. And, um, I am so glad we were here for the pandemic. Oh my gosh, because in Paris that was no fun at all. And in Portugal it was much more relaxed.

[00:15:25] Louise: It really was. Yeah. But before the pandemic, I was actually a client of yours. 

[00:15:30] Hayley: Mm-hmm 

[00:15:30] Louise: And I remember that sometimes we set up appointments in between your trips back to Paris. You were commuting, you were going back to Paris to see clients and you were building your practice here. 

[00:15:39] Hayley: Yes. Yes. That was, that was before the pandemic. I stopped doing that during the pandemic. 

[00:15:44] Louise: It was pre-pandemic. Yeah. 

[00:15:46] Hayley: Yeah. 

[00:15:47] Louise: Now, are, are you still doing that? Are you still going between Lisbon and Paris? 

[00:15:51] Hayley: No, I'm, I'm totally based in Lisbon now. The way that I have more of a global outreach is through my online energy work sessions, which is a lot of fun. And actually I work on people from all kinds of countries that way. 

[00:16:02] Louise: Oh, I didn't know that. Tell us a bit about that. 

[00:16:04] Hayley: Yeah. You know, I realized during the pandemic that treating people face-to-face was not the only way to help them. This was a time when everything started happening online, cuz it couldn't happen in person. I already had a background in Reiki and Cranial Sacral and I started doing this for clients. You know you can do distance work, you don't have to be on the same continent as somebody in order to help them to, he help their Chi, to help their Meridian systems come into balance. You can do energetic acupressure on them. It's a really, it's really fun. It's a really fun and dynamic way to work with people. 

[00:16:37] Louise: And are you seeing more patients in person or more patients online? 

[00:16:41] Hayley: Oh, still more people in person, but yeah, but the online stuff is, is getting stronger and that's, that's nice to see. 

[00:16:50] Louise: And you're also in private practice in Lisbon, as you mentioned before, that's what you had done previously. Was it difficult for you to, um, start a practice here in Portugal as an American? 

[00:17:02] Hayley: Um, no, you do have to get licensed here and that's not difficult, but it is time consuming. It just takes a long time for the paperwork to be processed, like many things in Portugal actually. And then it does take time to build up a client base. Every time you move, since you can't bring your patients with you, that's why I was commuting back-and-forth to Paris for actually a while. Was I doing that for maybe, maybe like two years. I stopped because of the pandemic. 

[00:17:28] Louise: You have a really, um, consistent presence online. Is that the way you have mostly, uh, built up your client base? 

[00:17:36] Hayley: Yeah. Being a present online is certainly helpful because, especially now post COVID or during COVID, since we're still in COVID, um, people are used to looking up things that they need to try to find services that way. But yeah, I think it's a, it's a good way to get the message out. And then of course, word of mouth is always really nice. It's great if you can get a referral from somebody. Happy to say people are referring me to, which is good. 

[00:17:59] Louise: Fantastic. And then are your clients mostly internationals or you're seeing Portuguese as well?

[00:18:05] Hayley: I do see both, but I do see more internationals because they're looking for people who are really proficient in English. It's not always easy to have health conversations in languages that are not your own or in Portuguese, if you don't speak Portuguese. 

[00:18:18] Louise: Given that you're, uh, you're a bit of a whizz with languages, how's your Portuguese coming along?

[00:18:22] Hayley: Oh, I was afraid you were gonna ask me that question. Yeah, I know. You know what? I've honestly been so busy that I haven't made time for it, which is a very poor excuse. But I'm gonna do something about it this year cuz I'm way overdue. 

[00:18:37] Louise: It does take time. It takes dedication. And uh, unfortunately though I did dedicate some time to it, I'm just not great with homework these days. 

[00:18:47] Hayley: Yeah. 

[00:18:47] Louise: And it required a lot of homework around the grammar. Now, We talked about the health issues that the French deal with, with the Portuguese that you see, or those internationals who've been living here for a period of time, what kind of cultural impact or what kind of issues that you see here are specifically, uh, specific to the Portuguese culture would you say?

[00:19:14] Hayley: To go back to this idea of stress and I'm talking about stress because it's a really huge factor in how healthy we are and studies in America have shown that like 80% of doctor visits are stress related. Stress can cause just a vast majority of dysfunction and disequilibrium in the body. For me, it's kind of the catchall category of gee, how do people deal with stress. I think in Portugal, there's a real culture around just sort of taking it like 'yeah, I'm stressed. I don't feel so great. I am just gonna deal with it.' There's not the same, like push into figuring it out.

[00:19:56] Hayley: I think that this is related to the dictatorship in which, individuality was suppressed. There's quite a difference in how expats express their health issues to me versus Portuguese people. With the expats, I've really noticed that they seem to be really in the mode for, 'oh gosh, my life, I gotta fix it. I can't not fix it anymore. We gotta make things better here, body, mind, spirit.' Whatever it is. And there's a lot of motivation for figuring out how to live in a way that supports good energy and happiness, and that's actually really inspiring to see. 

[00:20:35] Louise: Hmm. So you are seeing a lot of wellness by the sounds of it.

[00:20:40] Hayley: Yeah, definitely like the quest for wellness. It doesn't mean people coming to see me are feeling all that great all the time. Like often it is some kind of pain-related issue or some kind of discomfort that motivates them to come in. But also people are coming in because they're just flat-out stressed or anxious or depressed or something like that and they wanna work on it. I love seeing this kind of thing because if you spend time working on your health issues or any issues, really, you will see change. It's impossible for things not to change because your entire being, your, all of your systems are designed to respond to input. So if you give different input, you get different output. It just makes me feel really optimistic about people. I love it. 

[00:21:20] Louise: Would you say that the majority of your clients are around your age?

[00:21:24] Hayley: It's, it's a pretty big range. So I'm in my forties. I'm 43. I get 20-year-olds up to about 50-year-olds usually. I think beyond 50-something, people aren't as used to thinking about alternative health care. 

[00:21:39] Louise: Hmm, except me, cuz I was one of your oldest. 

[00:21:44] Hayley: One of my oldest patients. I mean, I've worked on, I've worked on elderly people, but it's not as common over here. 

[00:21:50] Louise: And well, of course I'm not elderly. 

[00:21:51] Hayley: But I am sorry. I wasn't calling you elderly. That's what I'm saying. You're, you're not in that category. 

[00:21:56] Louise: Yeah. I, I know, where you're coming from. So, our pre uh, interview chat was interesting. You, um, mentioned that you are going for a Spanish passport or you got your Spanish passport through your mum's heritage?

[00:22:11] Louise: Oh yeah. My mom applied for the Sephardic Spanish passport. The Spanish government some years ago, In order to apologize for the Spanish inquisition in which they kicked out or killed a lot of Jews said, 'Hey, if you can prove that you are one of the, you're a descendant of one of the affected families, you can get your citizenship to Spain.'

[00:22:31] Louise: She went on a heroic quest to, um, to find the genealogy necessary. It took her years, I think she spent about four years on this. It's been a multi continental quest because she had to get documents from Columbia, which is where her grandfather, her father was born, my grandfather, and, despite all the obstacles, uh, she succeeded, which was just really incredible because even at the end, the Spanish government started to rescind this, uh, opportunity. And because she got it, I was also able to get it. So I think I'll have it by the end of the year. 

[00:23:06] Louise: Wow. You also were saying that that gives you access to Europe, of course, and that you and, Frank may try living there at some point? 

[00:23:16] Hayley: I would love to live in Spain. Thanks to mom. I feel a strong connection to it. She, she gave us Spanish lessons here and there when we were kids and she exposed us to the culinary culture, which of course is amazing. I've been to Spain several times. I've really enjoyed it. Oh my gosh. There's just something about that place. I definitely hope to live there one day.

[00:23:36] Louise: Mm-hmm. Do you still have relatives there? 

[00:23:39] Hayley: Oh, do we still have relatives there? Oh, do you know what? I don't know the answer to that. Hmm. I, I know we have relatives in Columbia for sure. I think maybe our family might have left entirely, but this is a great question. I have to ask mom. 

[00:24:00] Louise: I bet she knows given that there were many years of research. So what do you see happening for yourself in the next couple of years? 

[00:24:07] Hayley: I really would love to, now that the world is open again and I feel comfortable traveling again because, you know, really during COVID I was like, I can't go, I work in healthcare, that'd just be so irresponsible of me to go anywhere. Now I'm back in travel mode, which I just adore, so I hope to have a whole bunch of great trips coming up over the next couple years. Actually, we're going to Spain in September to Ibiza, which I haven't seen yet. That'll be amazing. Yeah, just wanna live the life European style, which means plenty of play time and grow the business some more and, all the good stuff. 

[00:24:45] Louise: If listeners would like to learn more about you and your services and your practice, where can they find you online? 

[00:24:51] Hayley: I've got a website called AcupunctureInLisbon.com If you like Instagram, which is where I post a lot of stories and that's a pretty dynamic place to keep updated, it's acupuncture.in.Lisbon Facebook is Acupuncture In Lisbon, as well. You can WhatsApp me, email me, all, all kinds of ways.

[00:25:12] Louise: Okay. That's easy. I will link to those, I think you gave us three, three sites. I'll link to those in the transcript of this episode. And thank you so much, Hayley, it's been fun. 

[00:25:23] Hayley: Oh, it was great. It was great catching up with you. Thanks so much for this, this is really nice. 

[00:25:27] Louise: Thank you for listening today. So you don’t miss future episodes, subscribe on your favorite podcast provider or on my YouTube channel Women Who Walk Podcast. Also, feel free to connect with comments on Instagram @LouiseRossWriter or Writer & Podcaster, Louise Ross on Facebook, or find me on LinkedIn. And finally, if you enjoyed this episode, spread the word and tell your friends.